Hi Dab,
Glad you're seeing progress. Yes, the sleeping aids help w/ the sleep now that the alcohol isn't doing it.

Hang in there and hope you reach your goals. Thanks for all your supportive posts!

Dang, I'm on target for another heavy week's drinking...close to 70 again, depending on how I do tomorrow.

I have to address something that concerns me here. A number of people are very supportive of having...really encouraging...us to have put in "AF" (Alcohol Free) days, as if that will in some way help us to become free of our alcohol addiction. I couldn't DISAGREE more!!!

Sure, I can white-knuckle it tomorrow and have an AF day, which is certainly good for my health. However, if I have to push or force myself to have an AF day....then for those of us here taking Naltrexone and abiding by the Sinclair Method...doing so accomplishes us absolutely NOTHING. All it does is forcefully induce what Dr. Sinclair calls the "ADE", the "Alcohol Deprivation Effect". He discovered this phenomena very early on in his research, almost 48 YEARS ago! When alcoholics who are still addicted to alcohol are deprived of their drink, as all contemporary rehab/detox programs do, they end up craving it all the more, until they eventually give in and start the whole cycle over again.

The Sinclair Method, using Naltrexone, has been very well established to show that those who DRINK, as long as they are taking the Nal at least one hour before, will over time effectively "un-learn" their addiction...through the process of "extinction", which is a very old tried and true part of the Psychological school of BF Skinners' Classical Conditioning. Look that up, because Dr. Sinclairs entire work with Naltrexone stems from it. If you don't know exactly what the "extinction" process/concept is all about -- then you are taking your Naltrexone blindly and pontificating (uneducated bla-bla-bla-ing) yourself silly here. Educate yourself and THEN post, please? We will be all ears. In the meantime...please listen; Nal + Drinking is the "Program" here! Nothing else counts. AF days will come as the extinction effect works.

Forcing yourself to have AF (Alcohol Free) days does not in any way help you one iota to accomplish TSM. On the contrary, it sets you back that day, or that many days. The beauty of TSM, folks, is that within a certain period of time, if it's working for you, you will joyfully, willfully take AF days BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO! Because, thanks to the Naltrexone working its magic, your addiction has been extinguished to the point that you can "take it or leave it" and simply don't WANT to drink. No effort is involved! Only your newly found free will, thanks to the Naltrexone and Dr. Sinclairs method. THOSE AF days are the REAL ones! Any other forced, white-knuckled AF days don't help you at all!!! Period. Those are simply cheap left-over "AA" sentiments, which values abstinence above everything. But I'm not knocking AA! Until TSM, we had little else. TSM brings you to abstinence just as well as the lucky few in AA who have the coveted, long desperately prayed for blessed "spiritual experience"! TSM is OUR higher-power!!! Perhaps, even, God-given to Dr. Sinclair??? I'll vote for that!

So, bottoms up!!! As long as you are following the Nal "Golden Rule" every drink is taking you closer to the CURE, to absolute freedom from your alcohol addiction! Forcing AF days upon yourself in the meantime, SETS YOU BACK! And if this still doesn't make sense to you, then you need to read, or re-read Dr. Sinclair and Escapa's book until it does make sense. Trust me.

Y'all take care and ---KOKO!

Hey there, Dabs -

I know it probably doesn't feel like it to you, but in the scheme of things you are pretty early on in the TSM journey...who knows how long that will be for you? It's the factor that is so maddening, that not knowing.

Having said that, if an AF feels like torture to you, than don't force it. For many of us, at some point it becomes a genuine desire, to "accomplish" an AF...it comes to feel like a natural progression, am I right, TSM "veterans"? And then the further challenge of stringing a few together comes along. I think this indicates the extinction process is definitely working. And, oh, the great feeling it is, and the confidence builder!!! As for a "string" of AF days - speaking for myself - it is a way of testing the new...drinking skills, and I certainly seemed to make some major progress from the experience.

But if you're not feelin' it, then don't fret none. Maybe Tiller will weigh in at this point...

best to you! KOKO

I've been thinking more about this...hmmm...

You mentioned ADE. Ah, yes, that was my first wonderful gift from TSM, as big as the honeymoon: learning that all my efforts to limit my alcohol or cut back or "break the habit" by quitting for a stretch, would just backfire on me and I'd just drink MORE the next time. It wasn't because I was a spineless, bad person! It was simply a physiological phenomenon, wow. What a relief, to realize that.

The NEXT wonderful thing to occur with Alcohol Deprivation Effect, is to get beyond it. I think I only truly realized I was free when I did my little AF stretch; it just hadn't occurred to me that had happened. Another sign of the extinction process working towards completion for me ! I think at this point, I'm just kind of "mopping up" some remaining habit-driven behaviors...

Wow, thanks for sharing these neat insights, Chrissie! Indeed, the ease with which you put in those AF days was a clear indicator of just how well the extinction process has been working for you!!!

This is all so exciting isn't it!?

KOKO!

Dab,

If you go back and have a look at Dr. Eskapa's book, you'll see that Dr. Sinclair does encourage AF days through will power after you've been on TSM for awhile.

This has been discussed many times here in the past. What I've come to believe, after reading about this topic many times, is that part of our drinking is driven by endorphin addiction and the other part is simply out of habit. TSM addresses the endorphin part, but not the habit part. Once TSM gives us the ability to choose not to drink, it is up to us to actual not drink. Think about it. How many times have you come home from work, for example, and just feel like you need to drink. IMO, one is still working within TSM if he takes his NAL (just in case), then choose not to drink with a little will power.

Now, I'm not saying you should force yourself to do this every night when you are still drinking at 70U/week, but I believe their are definitely benefits to "choosing" to have an AF day

This might be a good question to put to Dr. Sinclair, but I'm pretty sure ADE isn't going to become an issue with a day or two of "chosen" AF days. I think ADE really comes into play when you white knuckle abstain for an extended period of time (who knows how long exactly). If ADE were an issue with using some willpower not to drink while on TSM, then I don't think Dr. Sinclair would have recommended it in Dr. Eskapa's book, which is exactly what he does do.

Q

Exactly, exactly. And in the first AF's we accomplish -early on - we're working on both components. It is very common for people to complain about/resist/FEAR the first AF or two...it is often a very big deal! Maybe not so much for binge drinkers, but for us "daily drinkers". It's not uncommon for someone to work on this for...months before they can attempt it, and then it might be some really contrived situation - being at a friends house, for instance - to create a new setting. So, as Q says, some will power is required for many...to grit one's teeth and just do 'er! But SO worthwhile to start! and then to build on it...

Dab, what is your goal w/ alcohol, meaning what do you envision as the ideal future scenario? Drinking a few drinks a few times a week, or complete indifference, and "forget" to drink, or don't want it at all???

Couldn't agree with both of you more, actually. I've been sort of playing the devil's advocate, I confess. The devil, in favour of the helpless alcoholics here who cannot even think of putting in an AF day. There are others on this forum who seem to be taking the Nal like it's Tylenol, or Baclofen....some quick fix to control the craving so that in the meantime they can, a la the AA doctrine route, become abstinent..."if only" they can put in enough AF days...as if that is going to cure them! On the contrary....when we are still addicted, putting in AF days merely initiates the ADE (Alcohol Deprivation Effect)...but as you are correct in pointing out, Q, doesn't happen in a day or two...it takes a few weeks to come into strong play. My point is, we are taking the Nal in order to initiate, substantiate even, the Sinclair Method of pharmacological extinction. Some here don't truly understand what that whole concept is!

What it IS, is Nal + drinking = over a period of time; 3-6-9-12-14-16 months = freedom from alcohol's death-grip. Putting in AF day's as we are able is good, but is NOT part of the prescribed method, is not in any part of Sinclair and Escapa's book recommended as a way to expedite the extinction process. Rather, they describe that the AF days will come in their own time as the extinction process works its magic. When it does, we will simply WANT and freely be able to put those days in. Forcing them in before that only shows us that we aren't ready yet, that the extinction process needs to be given more time! Having AF days that don't come about as a natural part of the extinction process do not take us any steps or day's closer to the cure. The cure ONLY comes as a result of Nal + drinking. AF day's are a bonus when we reach that point in the extinction process when one day or two and eventually many more, we simply don't want to drink.

As for me, I'm waiting for that day. My goal, hope, dream is for the Naltexone to do exactly that which Sinclair and Escapa describe it to be capable of, to help me to reach the day where alcohol no longer controls me, when I can "take it or leave it", when I can choose to drink or not, with ease. If I get to that day, then to drink or not to drink will no longer be an issue or even a question. I will be free to choose. And so will everyone else here who follows TSM and is blessed with it working for them.

KOKO folks! We have nothing --more-- to lose, and oh so much to gain if TSM works for us!!!

i know for me if tsm works, the hard part will be the habit. i drink every day and drinking became part of my life. if tsm can give me a head start i quess the habit part wont be that bad. but im real real realy dont want to do a af day. but i think i will try.