Here , here Bob , good work .

I don't claim to understand all the anotations on the clinical trials at back of the cure
but not only Project combine but most of them don't concern tsm .
I must read James link .

Good man, you make me laugh sometimes , quite alot , and believe me that's meant fondly.
If James is Orange .... he says he drinks , notice ! ? Isn't Orange 6 years sober ?
It's fine by me if James likes the research but can speak plainer for the untechnical of us
please . But above all James just has to let his NAL take its course before concluding .

I again, I want to emphasize that there is a big difference between my musings about the published literature and individual therapy. After all, I am following TSM myself. Yep, I'm new to this, but journal papers are journal papers, and their analysis doesn't depend on what I or anyone else are experiencing.

I don't even know who Orange is, so I don't know what that rant is about. My only encounter with AA was > 10 years ago when I attended 5 court-ordered meetings. I remember thinking that I would rather be sprawled-out drunk, cirrhotic,and homeless than attend AA meetings 2-5 times a day (well, probably not on further reflection).

I don't do "support" well at all, so if anyone only wants that and positive comments, stop reading my posts.

OK, so we have bob, who wanted to have a big book burning spectacle after having his life changing cure, and now figures it makes sense just to start his own youtube spectacle at first. we have James, a newbie, who is armed with all kinds of science refuting TSM that most of us don't have the time, or knowledge of medical protocol, to even research. we have goodman, an enthusiastic newbie, who is accusing james of being "orange", who is an anti-aa crusader somewhere else on the intrawebs and would probably rather spend his time railing against aa than picking petty fights with a bunch of
mostly anti aa follks here.

It's getting insane.

Bob: if we are to launch a big provocative attention getting campaign, or even start burning books while mentioning TSM on youtube, the first place people would look into TSM is the Wiki article, and it looks like hammeredshit! It still has very few sources, as few sources are yet available, and Rapplean's wording is sketchy and unprofessional. wouldn't it be prudent to get our ducks in a row there, and remove some of the tags before marching on washington? I know wikipedia is more concerned with their standards of having multiple published sources than truth, but the fact is: most people trust wikipedia...sadly. calling attention to something with a less than stellar outward appearance seems counter productive to me. it seems like making sure TSM is represented for exactly for what it is on the web would come first, THEN flying the flag would be the thing.

James: have you looked at the wiki article? Maybe with your vast knowledge of science, you could offer some perspective on helping improve the page? making it more accurate as far as studies go?

if I were as astute as you guys are i would change the article, I have free time at work to post, usually several times a day, but research is another matter which takes real effort and time and knowledge of science. i haven't these things and spend way too much time here already. if I get cured, maybe I could drop off the board for a while and work on the wiki. until then....support

Goodman: C'mon man chill out. take the nal, have a cold one. this guy's not orange. anyway I consider orange a pretty cool guy. a vet who's exposing all the AA bullshit


I'm kinda wishing I hadn't gone public with my peeps yet. I love that we can talk freely here, but it seems to have gotten bogged down lately, and i'm as guilty as anybody for jumping james about comparing us to aa. If I came to the site now as a newb, I would be turned off immediately, not that we should stop questioning TSM or AA or anything else, but geez, Why can't we be friends? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc

Hey Bob, I don't know if you have ever seen this YouTube Video before. It is from www.blamedenial.co.uk a sort of UK version of the Orange Papers. The video chronicles the story of an unsuccessful AA/heroin addict who finally kicked his addiction using naltrexone. Check it out it's titled "How I Got Clean Without Alcoholics Anonymous"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNnuXOBVC2w This may give you some ideas for your project.

I've read this thread as a "newbie" and I doubt I get all of the nuances, however, it does bother me that nothing good comes from being a "hater". Praise the success of others, inform others of alternatives, but there has never, ever been "good for mankind" coming from a book burning. Why not praise the big book for their 5% success rate, and then ask why it is so low and show alternatives? I've been working to educate my primary care, at first he thought nal was controlled, then he would go along with it if done under supervision i.e. hospital detox, obviously a long way to go there. I did however get a referral to a well known medical institution with TSM being the requested treat, it will be interesting to learn what they know of the program. Anyway, it looks like all intents are well spirited, but insulting a program via book burning is drastic IMHO. Thanks! - scott -

1) Doing nothing at all results in a slightly higher rate of success (self-remission) than AA. Self-remission is barely higher than AA and is also 5% once you round off the decimal place. (See "What works? A summary of alcohol treatment research" in R. K. Hester & W.R. Miller (Eds.), Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches: Effective alternatives (3rd ed.), 2003, Allyn & Bacon). The slighter lower level of success of AA than self-remission means that AA is actually killing people who would have stopped anyway without AA. Agent Orange http://www.orange-papers.org has a ton of information on this phenomenon, so I won't repeat it here.

2) I have decided that I'm not going to do the stunt. Not because AA doesn't deserve to have their out-of-date book of voodoo wiped from the surface of our planet, but because people in general associate book-burning with bad people or evil organizations. We are not bad people here and I do not want to portray TSM as an "intolerant" method and us this forum as a hate group. Also, proselytizing is an AA step (#12), not part of TSM. We can tell others or not. It's our prerogative. So, I have reverted back to informing people only if they ask. I don't need to create an unnecessary controversy.

3) Although I am not doing the stunt and post it on YouTube, I am going to burn it for my own personal joy.

4) Thanks for your thoughts and level-headed positive approach, Scott!

Bob