Ok,I checked with a friend..Damnit!! It appears Im off the hook again..I appollogize 1-4,u had every right to pipe in..I should leave my personal agendas out of public debate..Hope u can forgive me?? As I have stated before Im like a bull in a china shop..Picture it..Yeh,thats me..I didn't mean to break all those dishes...haha?? Anyways,where's Joe12 when u need him??C'mon Joe,don't leave me hangin with my heart in my hand and my foot in my mouth......Goodman

No offence taken goodman.

The issue for me isn't what the truth is here, it is what people perceive to be the truth and how you can affect those perceptions.

As I said, I don't carry a card for AA. I'm on TSM and while I'm not cured, I'm a different person than I was before it - by and large I have my life back, even if it isn't quite yet where I want it to be. But on a scale of 0-10 where 0 is bottom and 10 is the most of my potential, I've probably gone from a 2 to 7.5 in my time on TSM.

Whether we're right and they're wrong isn't really important here - what matters is that we are (relatively) unknown - they are a recognized 'brand' all over the world - and if you asked the average punter how an alcoholic should be treated they'd say go to AA. If you said there is a pill that alcoholics can take that can let them keep drinking, and that this pill has been around for 40 years, but misused by the medical profession, they'd raise an eyebrow and say "too good to be true". That is the reality.
They can point to the standard instructions for taking naltrexone and say that we've hardly any evidence (which is true). They can say they have tons of people helped and cured (possibly true, even if it is only 5% of those signing up). Simply, the weight of opinion is with them. We'll look like cranks. It is a PR battle we won't win.

We can win the war though, but it'll take time. And in my opininion the best tactic is fight it low key and on intellectual terms - that is where the AA argument is weakest.

Well said 1-4,well said!! My impaitence is fueled by the memory of a dear friend who lost this battle..I am just an old soldier who made a promise to find another war..Oh God,I loved that man..But you're right,won that battle lost that war..This is why its important to keep the generals around..You hear that Bob?? Thanks again 1-4...Still hope he burns the book though,just for kicks,hahhaha..Peace someday...Goodman

I agree. It's all good and fun for Youtube, but at this point we don't have the firepower, or the numbers, to take on the A.A. juggernaut with a full frontal attack, despite the FACT that it is a better first option. A flank maneuver is wise methinks until there is either a better, less cheesy book, or there are more cured folk outside of Finland. Grassroots! I'm telling friends about it and they are watching me. So TSM's efficacy will determine whether it gets a stronghold here in my little corner of the world.

If Rosa Parks had not refused to go to the back of the bus in 1955, but instead had instead decided to "fight it low key and on intellectual terms", we would not know who Rosa Parks was. Some other person would have done what she did. But Rosa Parks then followed up on her initial action by helping organize the Montgomery, Alabama Bus Boycott with the help of Martin Luther King Jr. sparking the US Civil Rights movement on a large scale.

Rosa Parks was not the first one to take defiant action. She was preceded by others, such as Irene Morgan in 1944. When Irene Morgan refused to give up her bus seat in Virginia, the authorities came to arrest her for violating segregation laws. She then tore up the arrest warrant, kicked the sheriff in the groin and fought with the deputy who tried to drag her off the bus. Eventually her case went to the US Supreme Court, where she won, but only on the federal level. State laws had to wait for Rosa Parks and that subsequent sequence of events.

Why am I comparing US Civil Rights to Alcoholism Treatment? They both involve millions upon millions of people. They both involve people's lives. Civil Rights involved sacrifice, civil disobedience, breaking laws/tradition, and media attention. What do you think it will take to overthrow AA? It must start somewhere. And it may take many starts to get it going as it did in the US Civil Rights movement.

Bob

[quote="1-4-the-road ".....

"The issue for me isn't what the truth is here, it is what people perceive to be the truth and how you can affect those perceptions."

There is the burning of the book but there is also the non burning of one page that points to medical science as being a potential successor of the rest . Asyou said tsm's strength is intellectual argument . This is a singularly powerful argument succinctly captured . For this reason I'm coming round to favour the youtube option it has more focus on this key point.
As Bob said re Rosa Parks , start somewhere .... Maybe a better idea will come up but this
looks good .

[quote="1-4-the-road"]
They'd talk about the millions of cured people (including many famous celebrities), many of whom would be happy to pitch up in the media if required. We'd look like lunatics."

But are they cured ? Aren't they in recovery ? If they took one drink it would all be undone .

Would we look like lunatics if as Jimclark said a camera followed us all night and showed us
having a beer at the end .... ?

Bob

I have huge respect for you and your role here, and value your opinions. I respectfully disagree with you on this one though. I think the civil rights analogy breaks down though. My understanding (which I'm open to correction on) is that only the southern states had such laws in 1955 - i.e. the majority of the country thought otherwise. Probably the only other first/second world country with such segregation at the time was South Africa. The majority opinion was against the segregationists, the intellectual argument was long lost - it just needed the brave people to be the catalysts for change on the ground.

I don't think we're at that point yet. THink back to the time where you were so sceptical about TSM (before it kicked in for you) - what were your concerns?
We don't have the overwhelming evidence to confront AA yet

You make an excellent point.

My analogy initially was to illustrate that it takes someone or some group to initiate spark a change in the status quo. And that it may take multiple tries before that movement gets momentum.

Then, I stretched the analogy too far. Our treatment is not accepted by a large segment of any population. The intellectual argument has not been won at this time.

Should that stop the YouTube video because our time has not yet come? Nope.

Bob

OK , 1-4 the road , never mind ...

On the other hand the substantial difference with Rosa Parks situation is that an awful
lot of people could identify with the oppression .
I'm really not sure how many people can identify with being cured , and how many there are .
It's often said the cured drift away . Is this really true . If it is it's quite depressing . It's bottom line is tsmers when they get it they don't have to give it away to keep it like the
altruism of AA . Really bad .
How many cured are there ? WHo have been to this board ? How many cured are there in Finland .
Is there a neek here who could give some kind of estimate ? There used to be a neek called LOOP who would probably be the best person to answer . And where has he gone ? Is he cured ?
I had an uneasy feeliing on the back of my mind throughout this thread . ALthough I believe ,
know TSM is the best news for alcoholics , and although I think the burning is essentially powerful ..... the uneasy feeling I couldn't pinpoint was either a fear all that other fanaticism
about burning and its association and danger .... but no it's clearer now its not knowing how many people really are cured or sorted out by tsm . And howmany can we count on .
So I guess on that I agree with 1-4 .
Bob , it might be best to be clearer on this point ? I don't know how long that will take , idle to guess . But a good start would be receiving more feedback ...
AA probably is less powerful already than it was . But is tsm strong enough .
Yes potentially but not yet .
This has made me more than a bit sad .