No, I'm drinker who is an alcoholic (I hate this word/label) and currently I don't really drink, except that I've been dabbling lately. Seems inevitable given the number of cold-turkey alcoholics that relapse.

I don't want to be just like everyone else with this problem that tries and tries and tries to be abstinent, fails and falls hard, ends up in jail, etc etc etc I'm trying to arm myself against the statistical inevitability that I'm not going to make the next 40 years as a teetotaller.

It's already happened, I have just avoided having any benders. It's like dumping the pressure on a boiler, I've been dumping it a little lately to avoid blowing up.

The "occasional-ness" of the discussion is that I don't want to resume daily drinking. Been there, done that. Daily on vacation? perhaps. Daily at home, no.

But I would still like to both protect myself against excessive want and have the extinction happen.

And if I do resume weekly-daily drinking, I want to be protected against uncontrolled bingeing.

I hope this makes sense.

Zk

Zeke -

In TSM-ese it's an Alcohol Use Disorder. That seems a more accurate and helpful way of framing it to me.

Yes, it does make sense Zeke.

How often are you dabbling presently and how much do you drink per session?

How often are you white-knuckling?

I think TSM would be a good fit for you, especially since you're drinking occasionally now. You can have some extinction sessions and get a feel for how Nal works in your unique situation.

I would suggest you connect with an experienced addiction doc, like maybe a Psychiatrist or Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner that can prescribe and knows TSM. There may be other medications that would be good in your situation along with the Nal. The best approach seems to be to start off with 25mg and see how you feel, see if you get any side effects. Maybe you won't have any side effects at all.

I'd suggest you go get some blood tests done while you're looking up a doc (let me know if I can help you with that, feel free to PM). LabCorp seems to have reasonable prices, you might have one close to you. Order the following (this is what my doc wanted):

CMP
GGT
CBC w/diff

You'll have that ready to hand to your doc on the first visit. He may want more, but he's likely to want at least that. You'll need to fast for this. It was less than $100 for me, pretty affordable. Just let them know you'll be picking up the results yourself.

As Claudia says, you have to understand that we are each unique (the Snowflake Effect), so your experience with Nal may not be like the next guy's, especially if your doc suggests other meds along with it.

General guidance is that when you feel the urge, have at least a small meal, take the Nal with a full glass of water, wait an hour then go ahead and have the drink. Mindfulness helps and it's a good skill to develop. Sip the drink, don't gulp it. You only need one drink for the Extinction Event to occur, so ask yourself if you really want the 2nd, 3rd, etc.

Now, here's the deal with the Golden Rule - don't eff with it. Don't wash the Nal down with your first drink. You want that blockade to be in place before the alch passes your lips. People have tried it the the other way and their the ones that have problems and a poor response. If the alch hits your brain without the blockade, you've just had an alch reinforcement session. If you simply forget, then take the Nal asap. But don't forget.

When you use the Nal, the neural pathway that you want to erase initially becomes more and more sensitive as it upregulates the receptors, looking for that same old hit of endorphins that it's become so used to. If you let the alch hit you without the blockade, it will be like dropping the car in reverse and flooring the gas pedal. So always, always use the Golden Rule. It's like training a dog with a bad behavior, you have to be the alpha every time and give the dog the same response every time or it will take advantage of your weakness and go right back to the same old used-to-be.

On your alcohol free days, you can take advantage of that upregulation and create a new endorphin releasing habit that you enjoy, like exercise, eating a spicy meal, watching a good comedy (laughter), having sex, even chocolate releases endorphins. It's like getting two meds for the price of one.

So, that's the best I can explain it for now. What say you?

Bingers, do you have any other advice for Zeke wrt keeping drinking during events/partys etc, under control? Maybe a buddy that will call and reinforce the mindfulness or something?

Hey, this is kind of interesting too.

http://harfordrehab.com/blog/?p=120

As I read more and more about this process, it strikes me that the "programming" that leads to a Use Disorder involves a cascade, the neurological origin of that sequence, the response to the endorphins that start the "programming" is something that you don't even feel or notice. You only feel or notice the downstream neurochemical events. That's how it slips under your nose so easily. But that's just my guess.

"Bingers, do you have any other advice for Zeke wrt keeping drinking during events/partys etc, under control? Maybe a buddy that will call and reinforce the mindfulness or something?"

It's simple

PLAN your evening.

Don't drink before the event.

Don't drink after the event

Have a preset limit of 2, or 3 drinks.

Space drinks with water and/ or time between

You won't lose control if you aren't inebriated

It may ( lightbulb here) occur to you that driking to excess is pointless

NAL will help you in this

the above is solid advice. PLAN your night. don't get "primed", wait as long as you can before starting, and have a number of drinks you'll be consuming. the Nal really helps in not just hammering one drink after another. welcome and good luck!

Hey everyone:

I'm ready to try NAL now.

The past few months have been ridiculously stressful at work, and I have to admit that I'm back on the alcohol.

Not really a ridiculous amount, but as I have mentioned I have a dependence issue.

I'm really past the reckless stage where many of you have been, where you'll drink just as much as you want and you'll just have to deal with a hangover. I know every time I drink I got to keep it under wraps somewhat, If I was to drink like I used to I would have issues the following day with withdrawal.

So I have probably drank everyday for the past two weeks, and a few of those nights I binged enough (prolly 10 or less) that I needed to drink a beer or two in the am to get right. Then I'm like I've always been, a functional boozer who does his work.

Only now, where I'm at, I can't make it all day long without a drink. This sucks ass and is the reason I quit in the first place. Drinking to get well, is just disgusting. So those few binges have got me back to drinking a beer in the morning and a few airplane bottles during the day. Most of the evenings I've just been doing maintenance drinking to avoid the unpleasantness....

I'm tapering off tonight but I needed to drink a beer this am and 3 airplane bottles of vodka to make it thru the day. It's going to take me a few days to complete. I have also about half a script of Librium which is very helpful for weaning off, especially when you have tapered far enough you want to just stop. I generally will take one in the middle of the night if I need it. But of course, not when I've been drinking alot.

It's not that hard for me to taper, I have done it a bunch of times and I know now that tough love cold turkey is extremely hard on the body and mind. It's really not worth it and I wouldn't consider it. But this sneaking to get thru a work day is bullshit. I have an anxiety disorder as it is, and coming off booze really makes this much harder than it needs to be.

I'm ready to go back to mostly non-drinking, but some other interesting things have happened too.....

From the first time I cheated and had a little fun, that alcohol deprivation syndrome pressure that was building and building and building was vanquished. I felt like I had slain a dragon, and had I not been silly and indulged myself I'd still be riding high on the just the idea that it didn't have to be "forever". After that cheat I didn't drink for 6 weeks and didn't have a care in the world about it. I hadn't had that feeling since I quit drinking. So I'm sort of figuring out how this can work long term, losing that "I want a drink" feeling....

I also found that at least right now, I didn't go back off a cliff where I was when I quit drinking. I have responsibilities and I cannot afford to be non-functional. So I have some skin in the game now that I didn't have a few years ago.

I sorta get the plan, but I could use some advice on getting the NAL.

I don't currently have a doc where I live right now. There are long waiting lists at pretty much all the docs and I don't want to wait that long. Plus, to be honest with you this is a farming community and I doubt I'll have any luck at all finding the right doc. As it is, my other doc from up north, I'm not sure he had ever coached someone out of a bender. For example a doc friend of mine said if it was possible I should taper off and my doc told my brother I needed to be done with booze that very day. He gave me only 3 librium a day and that was difficult, I would not wish that on my enemy....

So, where can I get my NAL? Can I buy the Naltima from ADC and will that be a good place to start?

I'm not thinking it'll take me very long to make this happen.... I could probably do it in a few days with nothing, but I want to start the extinction process this time and get some benefit out of it.

Thanks to all, if you have another suggestion where I should get it PM me if it makes you feel better.

Love N Hugs

Zeke

Hey Zeke -

ADC seems to have the most reasonable price, though Jaba suggested getting a prepaid VISA card to pay them with, just make it for a bit more than ADC's charge and put the rest in your gas tank or the like after ADC actually ships. You could also set up a junk email addy to use with them, so you don't end up getting spammed. Naltima seems to be the more reliable brand.

A dose will last you about 12 hours, so if you're still going to be at it after that, take another dose and wait an hour before you continue drinking. I think I mentioned before that you should start at home with 25mg when you've got at least a day off, so you can see if you're going to have any side effects to deal with, rather than being surprised. Some have SE's the next day (nausea, headache, etc), so best to be at home base while you figure that out.

NB, benzodiaepines step on TSM, though some use them for sleep (or use them infrequently).

WRT the anxiety, pick up a copy of The Upward Sprial by Alex Korb. He gets a bit tech about how the brain works, so I think you would dig it. At first glance it's about depression, but what he really talks about most is anxiety and stress responses (as that's behind a lot of ills, depression often being one of them). Clues you in on how that works at the neurological level, so you don't end up letting your striatum power-trip you. The basic idea is that a small thing builds and amplifies through the entire brain and ends up running you around in circles. The fix is applying a small change in just the right place, then let the brain go to work on building and amplifying an "Upward Spiral" to replace the depressionary one. TSM works kind of the same way, you just make a small change (taking the Nal before you drink) and that turns into big results.

Joe

Thanks for your advice. I bought that book on Amazon, will be here tomorrow (gotta love prime). I have suffered with depression and anxiety in the past, both of which I masked "brilliantly" with alcohol. Like other have said, it really really did work though for many years. I mean, as far as medicines go..... Until it doesn't. I'm definitely more of a scientist, than a brute force AA type of person, and this is how I found TSM. I wished to all that is holy my doctor had known, or that i had been able to find TSM before I cold turkeyed it dozens of times..... And done the little bits of brain damage that come with it.

I am generally an upbeat person, but moody, so anxiety is my main enemy.

Great Idea on the prepaid card, I'm going to swing by WalMart and get one.

I slept alright I guess. Was a recovery sleep for sure -

Yesterday, I:

Drank 1 beer out of bed plus a little left over from my bed beer (probably 1/3)
Drank 1 oz vodka at work about 11am
Drank 1 oz vodka at lunch before a 2 hour meeting at 1pm
Drank 1 oz vodka at probably 3pm
Drank 1 oz vodka at probably 5:30 pm because I had the shakes a little and needed to work a little longer.
At home, drank two 16 oz cans of beer in the evening, just pushing off the shakes till bedtime...

1/3rd beer at probably 2am, when I also took my librium. I was sorta OK but was fully sweaty and having weird detox dreams
I just drank the other 2/3rds just now to steady myself, and I've got a few little bottles of vodka for work just in case.

For anyone reading, it's true that the vodka can help you thru a rough day and nobody will notice the smell, but where beer or wine is subtle, vodka is not. I may have drank more yesterday than I needed because it's not like you can sit at work and sip it, you gotta sneak it which is retarded, and probably err on the side of careful.... It sets you up for a roller coaster all day. Beering down at home with weak beer on ice is way less roller coaster if you're trying to taper off. Liquor is really not very good for this at all, it tends to light up your receptors and they are just going to tell you you need more - well of course, that's what NAL is for!! But I don't have any yet!!

I have a hard time with anxiety at work anyway, I'm the sole engineer at a small company. We have about 5X the orders we normally have and a new product that I designed which is in early production and as always there are some issues. This is the pressure and chaos I caved under and there's a long line of people in my office all day long, including the owners - wasnt' very good timing for this but you become a real expert at it. This was the first major project I had since I got sober a few years ago....

Probably some of you are saying "I'd never drink during working hours" and I just want you to know, that I always said that too. But once you cross the line, you may be able to sweat it out all day and not sneak, but if you have some anxiety issues you'll never make it. You drink too much one night after work and you're just not going to make it thru the day without alcohol.

I was an alcoholic for years, but most of that time I was carefree about it. Partying, blowing off steam, having laughs, playing gigs with my band - everything was A-OK..... On this side of it, there's a cautiousness I never had because I know that I'm a partial bottle of whiskey from a real detox that I would not be able to hide from anybody. So know that I'm here at least I can quit waffling about trying NAL and getting on with the healing! So in that way at least I'm excited.

Today, I think I might make it. I might be close enough to detox I can take a librium in the afternoon, which is less productive than drinking the vodka but won't have me on the roller coaster for the entire afternoon.

Any maybe tomorrow AM I don't need any alcohol.

Appreciate this resource, I'm not sure there's another website out there anywhere that offers this kind of hope to a person struggling.

respect

Zeke

Welcome Back Zeke,

I am glad you are ready to start TSM/nal, and hopefully you will have excellent and speedy results.

After you order your nal, reread the book if you have time. It will reenforce the information that you will need as you go through this process. And as Joe mentioned earlier, we are all snowflakes and we all respond differently with different time frames.

I had high anxiety anytime I would try to cut down my alcohol intake pre-TSM, so I understand what you are going through. I never tried any Benzos to help me, but I did use valerian root to take the edge off and to help with the anxiety (there are other OTC supplements for anxiety). Once I started TSM I did have anxiety when it came to my "drinking hour" and waiting that hour sometimes was very difficult. So besides having a small meal and water with that nal set a timer for that hour, for time will go by slowly. Please make sure you have been off the Benzos before starting the nal, for the Benzo will make your brain lazy just like alcohol will and it has been posted throughout this forum that Benzos will hinder your progress. Please do not put a time frame on this, for you will be frustrated/discouraged in the long run. Look at it from a different angle; you didn't have an issue with alcohol overnight and you are not going to extinct those issues overnight. I am not saying that TSM will take a long time, but it might take longer than 3 months. I do not think you will be able to expose yourself to all of your drinking triggers in a few days (I might be wrong).

I have been at this for almost a year and I thought I had covered all of my triggers only to recently have an increase of intake. It turned out to be a trigger I haven't dealt with, so I never had the chance to extinct that trigger. TSM let me have the control I never had before, but it took me a while to figure out why all of a sudden I started to want to drink daily again. I am not saying that this will happen to you, for we all drink for different reason, but I wanted you to realize that sometimes our issues are not as black and white as we think.

I am excite to hear about your progress, so please keep us posted,

Jaba

Zeke, Jaba has some wise counsel for you there.

Keep in mind that the Nal is only going to help you with the cravings, not the withdrawal, so you may have to force yourself to have a drink when you really don't want it.

I think I mentioned GABA (no larger than 750mg) in an earlier post, perhaps L-Theanine as well. That might help you with the anxiety, I think some said they preferred it even to benzos, but that's peculiar to the person. It may not do anything at all for you. Alcohol causes your kidneys to waste magnesium, so it would be good to add some of that in, but there's a bowel tolerance issue. More than you can readily absorb can give you the trots (which is why the hydroxide form is in Milk of Magnesia). It's said that some forms are more absorbable than others, so have a look about and see what you can find, maybe an ascorbate or citrate form, but no more than 450mg elemental magnesium per day, likely less than that so you can adjust easily. Part of the problem too is that alch beats up the intestinal villi that are responsible for absorbing nutrients, so again, low may be better for starting out until the little buggers start getting back to normal. Of course, look over your current meds to make sure that magnesium supplements aren't going to cause a problem with them. Check it with a pharmacist at least if you can't get ahold of your doc. Here's a brand on Amazon that seems interesting, a relatively low dose per cap, 3 forms of mag:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Magnesium-Th ... =magnesium

Glad to have you here, Zeke! Please post and keep us updated whenever you get the chance.